tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post3154151576813382091..comments2023-11-02T06:57:11.400-04:00Comments on BookEnds Literary Agency: How Much Money Will I MakeBookEnds, A Literary Agencyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06287278822065839469noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-34337675304188474292007-11-11T20:04:00.000-05:002007-11-11T20:04:00.000-05:00I was in a different position, because I entered a...I was in a different position, because I entered a publisher's contest knowing the prize money and publication advance were both small. The surprise came in winning, when I hired an attorney to sort out the contract. The contract had problems, and I ended up $200 in the hole in getting published. The book will be out next year. I hope. I would never think to ask how much money I could expect on a book sale. It would be like asking a child how tall they were expecting to be.Lorelei Armstronghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07639663436142251951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-13576162005479969502007-11-10T12:57:00.000-05:002007-11-10T12:57:00.000-05:00Jessica, this is another great blog entry on an is...Jessica, this is another great blog entry on an issue all of us writers ponder. Thanks for the insight. It's wonderful.<BR/>mbdAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-10383437063419193052007-11-10T02:51:00.000-05:002007-11-10T02:51:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-810268930778795182007-11-09T21:23:00.000-05:002007-11-09T21:23:00.000-05:00It didn't occur to me to ask how much money my age...It didn't occur to me to ask how much money my agent thought I'd make, though I did ask what publishers she thought it would fit well with. That was all that really mattered to me. I'm not into writing for the money anyway, though money won't hurt, of courseMeganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14804128461332841679noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-79363721754780766982007-11-09T19:25:00.000-05:002007-11-09T19:25:00.000-05:00Having been a successful real estate broker for a ...Having been a successful real estate broker for a while before leaving the business, I can guarantee that and publishing have little in common aside from an honest agent is imperative.<BR/><BR/>In real estate I measured the outside and every inside room and made a detailed drawing of it. I took numerous pictures. I ran comparables extensively and I could usually come very close to a professional appraisal on my suggested value. <BR/><BR/>Real estate is solid and measurable. Books have an intangible appeal, which is not quite so finite.<BR/><BR/>I was always honest about the best way to sell and didn't give them false hopes of making a killing.<BR/><BR/>I would want the same kind of literary agent as I, and my agents, were in real estate.<BR/><BR/>Give me the market. Tell me how to make it better and be honest. Tell me what you will do to sell my book and what you expect me to do to help you. If you can give me an idea of how you think it will sell that's even better, but I don't expect or want guarantees. <BR/><BR/>Someone who guarantees a quick sale for the big bucks would make me nervous. Been there, done that, bought the tee shirt.<BR/><BR/>I'm glad this topic was posted as it is good informationJulie Weathershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13725236516593676381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-11662091808173430762007-11-09T19:08:00.000-05:002007-11-09T19:08:00.000-05:00This post makes me feel even better about the agen...This post makes me feel even better about the agent representing my projects. Of course the question of money was on my mind, but I never even had a chance to ask. Right up front he told me what I could reasonably expect -- for both the advance and royalties.<BR/><BR/>At the same time, I had conversaions with several other agents who were considering my work. All but one brought up money, and one even said, "Okay, this is what you can expect as an advance. Do you still want to pursue this?" I thought that was interesting, especially since the amount was far more than I anticipated.<BR/><BR/>In regard to asking the question, it seems logical (now) that this should factor into the decision, but maybe wait until there is at least a small degree of author/agent rapport first. <BR/><BR/>Thoughts?<BR/><BR/>- Dennis<BR/>www.donttipthewaiter.blogpost.comGODhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13142285993824656408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-82533925624503641652007-11-09T18:45:00.000-05:002007-11-09T18:45:00.000-05:00Jaxpop, go with your gut. I say you were right to ...Jaxpop, go with your gut. <BR/><BR/>I say you were right to toss their card. Either they're a fake looking to make money off you for editorial services, or they're way too new to the biz to know that lots of writers start books but never finish (not that that applies to you!)Josephine Damianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17952030380866201241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-19396320260914352952007-11-09T18:35:00.000-05:002007-11-09T18:35:00.000-05:00Hi Amy M.,I hope my book gives you a couple of chu...Hi Amy M.,<BR/><BR/>I hope my book gives you a couple of chuckles! I had so much fun writing it. I would love to get a copy of your review. You can reach me through my website, www.christie-craig.com and you can also read some of my blogs http://killerfictionwriters.blogspot.com/ <BR/><BR/>Thanks again. This is all very exciting for me.<BR/><BR/>Christie CraigChristie Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13838947086349600665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-78387805479654733212007-11-09T17:52:00.000-05:002007-11-09T17:52:00.000-05:00I think I understand what the postings that talk a...I think I understand what the postings that talk about bypassing the huge deal/advance and building slowly - having the added pressure and all, at least I think I understand what they are trying to say but again I disagree.<BR/><BR/>But this leads into the 2 worlds, writers who look at this as a business - as I do and those who look at it as something different not sure what the word would be? <BR/><BR/>I'm not sure why one would go through the work it takes to land an agent or publisher as if its some dream that just falls from the sky? Maybe a blessing but even thoughs require prior work.<BR/><BR/>I don't mean to be disrespectful, maybe some are new to it, but it does seem as if many forget that it is a business.<BR/><BR/>It's also the agent/publishers time that I take seriously and would not want to waste it for them.<BR/><BR/>I don't get it when writers don't think that way but I guess that is what makes the world-go-round.<BR/><BR/>And regarding the sites that tell of advances even if its omitting names - I'd be concerned when agents say the information is out of date or incorrect. I'd rather rely on real time discussions with an agent or look to those such as RWA and the SF groups that do a pretty good job of informing writers what is possible. I don't see anything wrong with providing it but if its only a few deals in the count or wrong then it isn't doing anyone any good. But that's just my opinion.bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01500014712284794881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-25147127803537935602007-11-09T17:14:00.000-05:002007-11-09T17:14:00.000-05:00You better believe I'm choosing the agent because ...You better believe I'm choosing the agent because of her connections to achieve a book deal. I have friends. I want an agent. Not merely to achieve a "big" book deal but because of the whole package: the connections to the right agents at the right publishers, subsidiary rights depts., the agent's track record in handling books like mine, in handling books at the level I want to reach, all of it. <BR/><BR/>And one thing an agent DOESN'T do is "promotion." Yeah, I've seen a lot of agencies say they do promotion, or open up "promotional departments" for their clients -- including mine. I haven't seen this actually come into fruition anywhere, though, because guess what? Agent's connections are with publishers and writers. Publisher's connections are with media and booksellers. I've yet to see some agency-run publicity dept. do anything significant with a book. <BR/><BR/>No, I don't ask what an agent thinks she can sell my book for, and I didn't choose from the agents who offered for me based on the number they hypothesized. You never know what a book sells for. My first book sold for over ten times the first offer, which means one person, at least, thought my book was worth 10% of what actually became its market price. And if someone else hadn't offered, that WOULD have been it's market price. So you never can tell. When I moved to a new publisher, it was because my initial publisher's offer was too low, and we ended up selling the book for three times as much. that's why you can't ask the question. Not because it's rude, but because anyone who *guarantees* you six figures is lying. <BR/><BR/>Brenda Hiatt's survey is nice, but incredibly out of date and incorrect in places. Trust the info on Harlequin category romances, which are boilerplate deals, and not much else. If you do enough reading though, not just with Hiatt, but on Publisher's Marketplace, Publisher's Weekly, and others, you'll start getting a better idea. Small genre mass markets can see anywhere from 5-10k for a baseline, but if you've got a project they want, you can get up to 25k per even in the midlist. Mainstream and hardcover of course, go much higher. <BR/><BR/>You posters who are terrified of large advances, I'm sorry for you. I see a direct correlation between a large advance and the amount of effort a publisher puts into pushing your book. A large advance usually goes hand in hand with co-op, lead title status, and attention from publicity departments. And there's little an author can do for herself that a publisher can't outstrip with even the most minor effort in co-op. though occasionally a book with a small advance can get attention with the right blurb or review or celebrity push, it's better to get a large advance and guarantee they want to recoup their investment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-41833218531246068262007-11-09T17:08:00.000-05:002007-11-09T17:08:00.000-05:00Thank you Kate & Heather for your input. In my eff...Thank you Kate & Heather for your input. In my effort to keep it brief, I failed to mention that I did check P&E & there was no listing.David Ebrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03037059701518103541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-42482657171574524892007-11-09T16:32:00.000-05:002007-11-09T16:32:00.000-05:00Jenny said... Anonymous 12:37,The surveys I pointe...Jenny said... <BR/>Anonymous 12:37,<BR/><BR/>The surveys I pointed to are not perfect, but they are what is available given how secretive publishers are about advances. They serve the purpose of giving the new author a dose of reality. <BR/>-<BR/>As Kim pointed out, these are often out of date and are not the reality check you're looking for.<BR/><BR/>---<BR/>I have met quite a few newbies who think they are going to get enough to retire on when they sell that first book. RWA folk have a pretty good idea about advances, but no other genre has an organization that offers reality checks to the unpublished like RWA does. <BR/><BR/>-<BR/>This is not true. MWA and SFWA do a nice job in sharing information among their members. It sounds like you're familiar only with RWA.<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>Anon 11:59 <BR/>Re the advance, I could not agree more that the size of the advance is a measurement of the publisher's commitment to pushing the book. <BR/><BR/>-<BR/>This is partially true. However, especially if you're in genre, if you fail to earn out you're not going to get another shot, or at least anything close to what you had. Isn't it better to earn out, earn royalties, and grow as a writer, rather than put all your hopes on one big advance that might not pan out? <BR/>---<BR/><BR/><BR/>Anon 3:07 <BR/><BR/>Agents do NOT market an author's work to the public. They market them to publishers. <BR/>-<BR/>A lot of agents are now involved in marketing. In fact, some even have personnel in their agencies devoted to this. And they even rep romance. <BR/><BR/>--<BR/>And though authors can do a lot to raise their books' visibility, if the publisher did a small print run and did not get the book into the chains, you can market your heart out but you won't sell a lot of books.<BR/>-<BR/>This is true. However, most first books from large houses get ordered, albeit small orders. Again, your book has to do it.<BR/>---<BR/>Even worse, if the publisher does s small run of mass market paperbacks and they sell through, the publisher that gave that tiny advance is NOT likely to reprint, no matter how much marketing you did.<BR/>-<BR/>This is sometimes true. So don't spend all your money on marketing. Write the next book and make it even better. However, if your book is generating orders, your book will be reprinted.<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>If the publisher has given a large advance, they print more books and they present the book to the chain reps as "hot" so they get shelf space. Then, when you, the author, raise interest, there are books there for people to buy. <BR/>-<BR/>This happens sometimes. Doesn't always work. There are a lot of books that are "hot" that disappoint.<BR/><BR/>----<BR/>And if you get a really nice advance, you can also get more media exposure. This is particularly important for non-fiction. <BR/>-<BR/>Ah, so it's better to be known for the size of your advance than the quality of the book and/or writing. <BR/>---<BR/><BR/>One of the things Publishers Weekly asks for when a publisher submits a new book to them is the size of the advance and the first print run. If they aren't big, forget TV etc. <BR/>-<BR/>Then how come Publishers Weekly is making a concerted effort to review good books by small presses?<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>There is a path to success that a lot of romance authors take--I've watched this happen over the years--where they start small, write a lot of books, and grow a readership and eventually make very good money. But this is not a good strategy for someone writing nonfiction or commercial fiction where low sales numbers in the chains can pretty much doom your next book. <BR/>-<BR/>You're right. If you only plan to write one book, or you take many years in between, go for the money. <BR/>---<BR/><BR/>And re the comparison of the literary agent to the RE agent, there is a huge difference, but not the one cited. In real estate, if you get your house listed in the MLS what you're selling will be seen by everyone shopping for a house. <BR/><BR/>But literary agents vary in who they know in the editing world and what editors think of their judgment. Those agents who can make a few phone calls and arrange an auction that leads to a huge advance can get you far more money than the recently fired lower echelon editor who just hung out their shingle last year and has sold three how-to books for tiny advances.<BR/>-<BR/>Sometimes. Consider Christopher Little, for example.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-11918851122900864602007-11-09T16:31:00.000-05:002007-11-09T16:31:00.000-05:00Are you actually saying that people enter into a b...Are you actually saying that people enter into a business relationship with someone and are too proud or childlike to ask about money?<BR/><BR/>My God, you people are nothing more than "marks". This is utterly unbelievable. No wonder I get so much spam from people offering their "services" as an agent for a fee - this level of naivite in industry must be driving a lot of it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-41020472069134404292007-11-09T16:24:00.000-05:002007-11-09T16:24:00.000-05:00Maybe a better question would be along the lines o...Maybe a better question would be along the lines of 'what is your vision for this book' or 'where do you see this book in relation to the marketplace.' <BR/><BR/>I would much rather hear 'editor x at <medium-sized publisher> has been looking for something like that - they don't pay huge advances but most of their authors have a solid backlist and steady income' than 'oh, I'm sure we can find someone interested.' (I'd like to hear 'I just sold a book of similar quality at an auction, and I know several edtiros who would pay a substantial sum to get their hands on this' but that's probably not going to happen..)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-37227682399409247922007-11-09T15:53:00.000-05:002007-11-09T15:53:00.000-05:00Anonymous 12:37,The surveys I pointed to are not p...Anonymous 12:37,<BR/><BR/>The surveys I pointed to are not perfect, but they are what is available given how secretive publishers are about advances. They serve the purpose of giving the new author a dose of reality. <BR/><BR/>I have met quite a few newbies who think they are going to get enough to retire on when they sell that first book. RWA folk have a pretty good idea about advances, but no other genre has an organization that offers reality checks to the unpublished like RWA does. <BR/><BR/>Anon 11:59 <BR/>Re the advance, I could not agree more that the size of the advance is a measurement of the publisher's commitment to pushing the book. <BR/><BR/>Anon 3:07 <BR/><BR/>Agents do NOT market an author's work to the public. They market them to publishers. <BR/><BR/>And though authors can do a lot to raise their books' visibility, if the publisher did a small print run and did not get the book into the chains, you can market your heart out but you won't sell a lot of books.<BR/><BR/>Even worse, if the publisher does s small run of mass market paperbacks and they sell through, the publisher that gave that tiny advance is NOT likely to reprint, no matter how much marketing you did.<BR/><BR/>If the publisher has given a large advance, they print more books and they present the book to the chain reps as "hot" so they get shelf space. Then, when you, the author, raise interest, there are books there for people to buy. <BR/><BR/>And if you get a really nice advance, you can also get more media exposure. This is particularly important for non-fiction. <BR/><BR/>One of the things Publishers Weekly asks for when a publisher submits a new book to them is the size of the advance and the first print run. If they aren't big, forget TV etc. <BR/><BR/>There is a path to success that a lot of romance authors take--I've watched this happen over the years--where they start small, write a lot of books, and grow a readership and eventually make very good money. But this is not a good strategy for someone writing nonfiction or commercial fiction where low sales numbers in the chains can pretty much doom your next book. <BR/><BR/>And re the comparison of the literary agent to the RE agent, there is a huge difference, but not the one cited. In real estate, if you get your house listed in the MLS what you're selling will be seen by everyone shopping for a house. <BR/><BR/>But literary agents vary in who they know in the editing world and what editors think of their judgment. Those agents who can make a few phone calls and arrange an auction that leads to a huge advance can get you far more money than the recently fired lower echelon editor who just hung out their shingle last year and has sold three how-to books for tiny advances.Jennyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17384082448952856117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-63641957207464483712007-11-09T15:40:00.000-05:002007-11-09T15:40:00.000-05:00Jaxpop, Heather is right. While there are a number...Jaxpop, Heather is right. While there are a number of very reputable small press publishers out there, there are just as many with very scary track records. Do your research, talk to other authors they have published and see if you can find their books in your local bookstores. Many of the smaller publishers lack the distribution that is necessary to sell your book.Kate Douglashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05486916548114546095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-50692618075242144492007-11-09T15:09:00.000-05:002007-11-09T15:09:00.000-05:00Jaxpop--you need to search for that publisher on P...Jaxpop--you need to search for that publisher on Preditors & Editors--to see what their record is. At the very least, ask for a client list and contact the authors on it.Heather Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11634399663804195312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-44793412714240996442007-11-09T15:07:00.000-05:002007-11-09T15:07:00.000-05:00Anonymous 11:59 - I was the one that posted about ...Anonymous 11:59 - I was the one that posted about the high advance being a scary thing for me. Yes, there are times that a high advance (depending on what you are thinking is 'high') will include some marketing ploys from the publisher...but not always. Marketing is being done less and less by publishers and more and more by agents and authors.<BR/><BR/>This might not be 100% true, but with publishing houses not making much money off of most of their authors, it is definitely a worry if you are a new author who fails to earn out her advance. Whether it be a small one or a large one.<BR/><BR/>I *still* would rather get a middling to small advance on my first book. I'd rather wow the publisher when my sales go through the roof then have to worry about ever earning out that advance. But that is just my feeling on the matter.<BR/><BR/>I think there are too many unpublished writers with stars in their eyes who think one contract will net them tons of money. Most published writers continue to hold day jobs and do other work to support themselves.<BR/><BR/>For me, it is the publisher who is important.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-10677964447578469892007-11-09T14:04:00.000-05:002007-11-09T14:04:00.000-05:00I know I'm going to look pathetically stupid, but ...I know I'm going to look pathetically stupid, but here goes. I met a rep from a small publishing company at a writer/agent/publishing conference about 6 weeks ago (my 1st ever). For whatever reason, I had stuffed the first 20some pages of my ms in my back pocket as an afterthought 'just in case'. (It's YA - not BookEnds material). After a friendly chat, (I swear I wasn't pitching) she asked & I showed her, by then, the crumpled pages (great 1st impression) of the ms. 10 minutes later, she asked if I could send the entire ms ASAP. I explained that I was still editing, that I didn't have an agent & had not queried anyone yet (still haven't). She said (very quickly)that I didn't need an agent but would still like to see the work. A week later I decided not to send the ms (tossed her card away - just had bad vibes about it all). Now I'm almost done editing & plan to struggle through the query process to try to land an agent. I just don't know the business side of it well enough to act on my own - that's the bottom line. Foolish, maybe, but it's still a fact that I don't know what I don't know. Ok, so I'm an idiot. Just (gulp) shoot me.David Ebrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03037059701518103541noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-7095997859929899882007-11-09T13:41:00.000-05:002007-11-09T13:41:00.000-05:00Hey Christie,I'm reviewing your book in my newspap...Hey Christie,<BR/>I'm reviewing your book in my newspaper column in two weeks! (Nov. 25) I was thinking, now why does that book cover look familiar, LOL.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-68315106209635685762007-11-09T12:55:00.000-05:002007-11-09T12:55:00.000-05:00I have to agree with Anon 12:37. Having worked at...I have to agree with Anon 12:37. Having worked at a few of those places, and now experiencing it from this side of the business, I find those average numbers very deceiving. In fact, some of that information is flat-out wrong (or at least out of date.)<BR/><BR/>Averaging advances and royalties is rather pointless. It gives you no indication of range or of how common the high advances are in comparison to the lower ones.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-3577843645475938772007-11-09T12:37:00.000-05:002007-11-09T12:37:00.000-05:00Jenny, those lists are fine for generalized terms....Jenny, those lists are fine for generalized terms. They are based on a limited amount of data whose authors don't mind sharing. They do not reflect the overall state of the market, and they are often out of date.<BR/>Publishing is one of the few areas where advances/payment is known to go down rather than up.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-79843060741029106472007-11-09T12:32:00.000-05:002007-11-09T12:32:00.000-05:00While how agents get paid is comparable to how rea...While how agents get paid is comparable to how real estate agents get paid, the sales are not. Too many intagibles with books. You never know when your off the wall plot might reflect some huge story in the news, and your book is in the right place at the right time. <BR/>Timing plays a huge role.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-58666952329846548562007-11-09T12:27:00.000-05:002007-11-09T12:27:00.000-05:00I'd ask a real estate agent how much they thought ...I'd ask a real estate agent how much they thought they'd be able to sell my house for. What's the difference?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-75110727890206264802007-11-09T12:14:00.000-05:002007-11-09T12:14:00.000-05:00Great post! As a first-time writer, of course I'm ...Great post! As a first-time writer, of course I'm curious what a professional thinks my book might be worth. That doesn't mean I expect millions; if it's worth $5000, I'd like to know.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the insight.Melanie Hooyengahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08781235493983907234noreply@blogger.com