tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post5788278371707198786..comments2023-11-02T06:57:11.400-04:00Comments on BookEnds Literary Agency: A Change of PunctuationBookEnds, A Literary Agencyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06287278822065839469noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-59822925368321431342008-05-20T13:59:00.000-04:002008-05-20T13:59:00.000-04:00As the editor of a small literary magazine, I don'...As the editor of a small literary magazine, I don't mind experimental styles with short pieces. However, asking a reader to slag through 300 pages of mental acrobatics is just too much. <BR/><BR/>The whole idea of writing is to confer meaning and knowledge. For good storytelling, it should also include emotional involvement and investment. This sort of connection is difficult to make with non-standard writing styles. It's unnecessary and pretentious and a bit like painting with colors that are not visible to the human eye. What would be the point?<BR/><BR/>While I resist the idea that proper grammar, spelling and punctuation is some kind of litmus test for your sincerity as an artist, I also think that trying to be purposefully obtuse is a bit pretentious.Sarah J. MacManushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03430266551248332700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-84251814767198906602008-05-17T21:17:00.000-04:002008-05-17T21:17:00.000-04:00I think the dash is a gimmick to try to make the s...I think the dash is a gimmick to try to make the story "unique". As stated before, voice should make a story unique, not gimmicks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-39733661962843627122008-05-17T16:13:00.000-04:002008-05-17T16:13:00.000-04:00To the Anon who said that dialog dash is not a new...To the Anon who said that dialog dash is not a new gimmick - of course it's not. Our complaint re: Joyce, et al. is that it's *pretentious*. There's no good reason for it, really, except a style choice, and the common theme seems to be that the style it denotes is "snob". I couldn't read Charles Frazier because of it (and other reasons). It made me go "Ick, why?" Stylistically I admit it can work for some people, I just haven't found them yet.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-90694075063564595142008-05-17T05:23:00.000-04:002008-05-17T05:23:00.000-04:00doesn't seem to matter much. maybe readers have to...doesn't seem to matter much. maybe readers have to adjust for the first few pages but after that punctuation disappears. i've never heard a single person say they were distracted by the punctuation used by joyce or hemingway or mccarthy. and ee cummings used non-traditional punctuation and capitalization to great effect.<BR/><BR/>i respect writers who stick to their guns on something they feel strongly about instead of pandering to agents and editors. there are many things you can do to your writing to make it more likeable (same goes with your personality) but then it's not really yours. <BR/><BR/>if you view your writing essentially as art and self-expression, do whatever you think works. <BR/><BR/>if you view your writing essentially as a product you are selling to as many people as you can get to buy it, keep the quotes.Suzanne Namhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01657896605213812608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-33273847997326957152008-05-16T18:40:00.000-04:002008-05-16T18:40:00.000-04:00I think it's dumb. There's perfectly good punctuat...I think it's dumb. There's perfectly good punctuation that serves the purpose. If you're going to do this, you might as well change all your question marks to ├ while you're at it.Michael Carr - Veritas Literaryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04017030835398885411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-90861435682614149232008-05-16T09:21:00.000-04:002008-05-16T09:21:00.000-04:00Regarding Jessica's answer . . . I agree the succe...Regarding Jessica's answer . . . I agree the success of fiction comes down to voice, but voice is a unique whole comprised of many discrete elements, including punctuation style. Dialog with dashes rather than traditional quote marks can sound abrupt, staccato, as if fired off in quick conversation. Dialog with no punctuation, such as McCarthy's, blends in with the narrative, so that dialog and story become one, establishing tone and mood. Remember John Irving's "A Prayer for Owen Meany?" Owen's dialog was ALL CAPS. EVERY WORD HE SPOKE! Now that's a risk, and it seemed annoying at first, yet was integral to the story and Owen's "wrecked voice." Rather than choosing a particular punctuation and writing style because you like it, the story itself should dictate those choices.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-73271066486176094512008-05-16T06:40:00.000-04:002008-05-16T06:40:00.000-04:00Used too much, it might be considered repetitive, ...Used too much, it might be considered repetitive, like using too many exclamation marks. I used to use dashes a lot until I ran across a reference about them in a writing book. I went back and started counting them, and then I went on a dash diet. Now I use them when they're important and necessary to the context.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-69257812639440884402008-05-15T22:25:00.000-04:002008-05-15T22:25:00.000-04:00"My first thought here was also Cormac McCarthy's ..."My first thought here was also Cormac McCarthy's Road."<BR/><BR/>His writing is lovely, but I am not pondering punctuation for hundreds of pages just so I can say I read it. It isn't worth the hassle for his work and certainly not worth it for anyone less skilled than he is.<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry, but it reminds me of the painting that was hung upside down and people pondered and discussed the meaning ad nauseum. I'm not sure if similar discussions took place when it was displayed properly, but I assume they did. My observation would have been, "It's a wavy line on a white board."<BR/><BR/>I freely admit I am not sophisticated enough to appreciate the "genius" of not using punctuation or using it in a gimmicky fashion.Julie Weathershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13725236516593676381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-66836732057126949862008-05-15T22:23:00.000-04:002008-05-15T22:23:00.000-04:00When McCarthy or Frazier write the way they do, it...When McCarthy or Frazier write the way they do, it's style. When a new author does it, it's weird.<BR/><BR/>Once you sell a few books, top a bestseller list or two, win a Pulitzer, you too can be wrong and call it style.<BR/><BR/>I think this is the unspoken rule in every comp class I ever took.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-39712833745395517602008-05-15T21:59:00.000-04:002008-05-15T21:59:00.000-04:00Why the dialog dash? Why not format Quotations li...Why the dialog dash? Why not format Quotations like they do in Spanish?<BR/><BR/>I don't even know if I can do that right, but it always looks hysterical to me.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-83141911679658819022008-05-15T21:50:00.000-04:002008-05-15T21:50:00.000-04:00- What the heck's a dialogue dash?- Yeah, I wonder...- What the heck's a dialogue dash?<BR/>- Yeah, I wondered too, so I googled. - And?<BR/>- I tracked it down in wikipedia, under "Quotation mark, non-English usage".<BR/>- Thanks.<BR/>- Don't know about you, but I reckon I'd sound pretentious.<BR/>- Like this post?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-23373370173148155562008-05-15T21:30:00.000-04:002008-05-15T21:30:00.000-04:00Isn't the dialog dash a British convention? Willia...Isn't the dialog dash a British convention? William Gaddis used it in "J.R." And James Ellroy stripped out almost every grammatical element except the essentials in "White Jazz." Of course, nobody here is William Gaddis or James Ellroy. That I know of.mbenkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16904350938138068641noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-75536235648582592822008-05-15T19:28:00.000-04:002008-05-15T19:28:00.000-04:00for a wonderful example of how the dialogue dash w...for a wonderful example of how the dialogue dash works,<BR/>read Charlie Huston's page turners, starting with Caught Stealing. At a book signing in Houston, he said didn't know anyone else had used them. He just "dit it." You should have seen his face when I said, "Like in Cold Mountain." It scrunched right up.C Ehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13550901066508791798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-203668689047654632008-05-15T18:24:00.000-04:002008-05-15T18:24:00.000-04:00Me, too--traditional punctuation, please. I, too, ...Me, too--traditional punctuation, please. I, too, dislike the free spirits who abandon things like quotation marks, commas, and capital letters, just because they (feel they) can. In poetry, or a personal letter? Feel free, but in a work of fiction you expect others to read? Or, at least, something later than the first draft you scrawled in your notebook at the coffee shop? Yes, please.<BR/><BR/>The only exception I'm really willing to admit, so far as quotation marks, is in science fiction, when you may have dialogue that's not exactly traditional--sub-audible communication, telepathy--things that need to look different than the spoken conversations.<BR/><BR/>Of course, I don't read French, and admit other countries their own, personal style usages. (grin)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-27952840977393258612008-05-15T18:01:00.000-04:002008-05-15T18:01:00.000-04:00Punctuation evolved to make reading an understanda...Punctuation evolved to make reading an understandable experience. Whether it's apostrophes, quotes, capitalization at the begining of a sentence and a period at the end, eveyone needs to follow the rules, or there are no rules.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-85419505088720464022008-05-15T17:19:00.000-04:002008-05-15T17:19:00.000-04:00Dialogue dashes are standard punctuation in French...Dialogue dashes are standard punctuation in French, which is the other language I can read and speak fluently. I don't think I've ever noticed if an English book was using them, because I grew up quite used to seeing them in all the French books I read.<BR/><BR/>For me, not a big deal.Anne-Mariehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05960236584908811801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-6491497110427307002008-05-15T15:44:00.000-04:002008-05-15T15:44:00.000-04:00I use the dash when writing drafts in longhand bec...I use the dash when writing drafts in longhand because it is easier that way, but when things go into the word processor I agree that quotes make everything nice and clear.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-64663392286308132612008-05-15T14:36:00.000-04:002008-05-15T14:36:00.000-04:00I have to agree with Kryianna - what is a dialogue...I have to agree with Kryianna - what is a dialogue dash? I've seen/used dashes within dialogue to connect sentence fragments, but I would love to see an example of what one looks like. All the books (including historicals) I read use proper English punctuation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-54427447287226526842008-05-15T14:29:00.000-04:002008-05-15T14:29:00.000-04:00I'm not much interested in literary fiction where ...I'm not much interested in literary fiction where the style is more important than the story. Some people enshrine such things as the epitome of writing, and they have the right to their opinion. As others have said, this falls into a taste category not unlike the previous "good/bad" discussion. Again as others here pointed out, standard punctuation is invisible and lets the story be the star. I read stories, not writing.Elissa Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10727748060605823895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-51717440535405863582008-05-15T14:28:00.000-04:002008-05-15T14:28:00.000-04:00Dialogue dashes actually make it very hard to read...Dialogue dashes actually make it very hard to read. Would rather see traditional quotes in my books.K J Gillenwaterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12023089365553324315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-26084394090272409382008-05-15T12:46:00.000-04:002008-05-15T12:46:00.000-04:00My first thought here was also Cormac McCarthy's R...My first thought here was also Cormac McCarthy's Road. I just finished reading it and the lack of quotations drove me crazy. I had to read much of the book several times to figure out when the conversations began and ended, and who was talking when. <BR/><BR/>His use of language is beautiful,and I get the style choice but I was too busy trying to figure it out to enjoy it. I say when the uniqueness of the writing distracts from the story, it's not necessarily a good thing.<BR/><BR/>Odds are stacked against new writers enough without adding ammunition for an agent to reject you.<BR/><BR/>It's like making a statement by printing your query on pink perfumed paper. It makes a statement all right - just not the right one!Heidi Willishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18420802651029097379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-62549313544972905862008-05-15T12:31:00.000-04:002008-05-15T12:31:00.000-04:00I'll accept anything if I understand it, and if I ...I'll accept anything if I understand it, and if I can see the point<BR/><BR/>Think the phonetic parts of Feersum Endjinn, or the second person pov of The Gospel Of The Knife.<BR/><BR/>So no, dialogue dashes wouldn't throw me for long.<BR/><BR/>Looks like I'm pretty much alone in this corner though *grins*Cat Hellisenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17381589504923205892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-82862528243566674602008-05-15T12:19:00.000-04:002008-05-15T12:19:00.000-04:00I can't stand dialogue dashes. I've read a few boo...I can't stand dialogue dashes. I've read a few books that used them and I spent half my time wondering why the author chose to use them instead of traditional punctuation. Probably not what the author had in mind.Melanie Hooyengahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08781235493983907234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-86756992263373328552008-05-15T12:03:00.000-04:002008-05-15T12:03:00.000-04:00Add my vote to the "stick with the current standar...Add my vote to the "stick with the current standards of English grammar" group. Grammatical sentences are easy-to-understand and make stories easy-to-read. Proper grammar allows the reader to sink into her imagination as she reads instead of focusing on the sentences themselves. I doubt I'd buy a book using dialogue dashes instead of quotation marks.<BR/><BR/>I've noticed that everyone who wants to buck the system seems to have a justification for it, but none of them have convinced me. Yes, people speak in fragments in dialogue. I don't object to a story using them occasionally or using them to characterize a certain character. However, it becomes a problem that jolts me from the story when the dialogue becomes difficult to parse or half of <I>every</I> character's dialogue is sentence fragments.<BR/><BR/>If you find yourself having to justify your grammar-deviation choices, you might want to examine your reasons for doing so. Is it really worth losing a chunk of your potential audience to do so? Your choice.Deborah K. Whitehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06015248910515441842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-23051453.post-25596773426691246612008-05-15T12:02:00.000-04:002008-05-15T12:02:00.000-04:00Several publishers with which I contract as a free...Several publishers with which I contract as a freelance copyeditor have been known to instruct freelancers to replace dialogue dashes with quotation marks. The dashes are seen as an annoying affectation.Katharine O'Moore-Klopfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14699159708036532202noreply@blogger.com